‘Dawood can still carry out blasts’
By: Aakar Patel
December 8, 2002
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S Hussain Zaidi

Mid Day’s Special Correspondent S Hussain Zaidi’s book on the serial blasts is out.

Black Friday: The true story of the Bombay Bomb Blasts is the only detailed report on the traumatic event that changed our city, written by one of India’s outstanding crime reporters. Zaidi spoke to Aakar Patel about the book over lunch on Friday.

What made you write this book?

Actually it was a fiction plot that I sent to David (Davidar of Penguin). He went through the plot and said he liked it very much, but that he wanted me to write a non-fiction book. We discussed several topics. The Mumbai underworld… we talked about biographies of some dons and then, finally, we came to the subject of the Bomb Blasts.

Why did you pick on the Blasts?

The cover of Black Friday: The True Story of the Bombay Bomb Blasts


I didn’t pick on it. It was he (Davidar) who suggested that I write on the Blasts. Until 1997, it was the biggest terrorist attack anywhere in the world.

Don’t Indians prefer to put the past behind them?

See, I was a journalist and a journalist approaches his subject as a reporter, without any passion or emotion attached to that particular work. So it was to me as if I were assigned to do a report, a story. I didn’t think about the past or of violent acts at all. I approached the subject as if it were any other story for me.

What was the reaction in Bombay’s Muslim neighbourhoods to news of the razing of the Babri masjid?

Not just Bombay’s Muslims but I think Muslims everywhere in the world were badly affected by the news that a mosque was demolished in this manner.

Was there much and is there much understanding or sympathy for the Hindu side of things?

Well, there was. But somehow they felt that the mosque was not the issue. That it was not just one mosque and they will not stop only at one mosque. The problem here is that Muslims believe that Hindus want to go beyond this, that they want more mosques, they want total dominance. They want to subjugate Muslims into submission by this mosque. The mosque is only a pretence.

Do they still feel that?

They do feel that. Rather, the conviction has grown stronger.

Where were you when the Blasts happened?

I was a business journalist, working with a magazine called Exhibition World.

Were you in Bombay?

I was in Bombay.

What was the reaction of local Muslims to the Blasts?

Do you mean like in Raigarh?

I mean in Dongri, Byculla…

There was a mixed reaction. Actually, a section of youths was elated that somehow they had managed to retaliate for whatever was done to them during the riots. Not only in Mumbai but in other places. However, the elders in the community were apprehensive that this will have far-reaching repercussions on the community.

What was your own reaction?

I felt bad. I felt that this was no way to get even. If at all they wanted to take revenge there were other ways of doing it but not killing innocent people. If they wanted to protest, if they wanted to retaliate, they could have singled out those people who had caused hurt to them, rather than kill innocent people who were not even concerned with any of this. Like paanwallahs or sharebrokers or the people who went to Air- India building.

Was revenge necessary?

No. I’m saying if at all, in extreme circumstances, people feel that revenge is the only way, they should have done other things than doing this.

What was your own reaction?

I don’t think that blasts or revenge is an answer to such acts.

Was there any talk before the Blasts happened that there might be something like this in the making?

No, but somehow there was a palpable feeling that Muslims should react, they should retaliate.

This was in neighbourhoods?

Yes, everywhere. Not just in India but even in other countries, that they have to do something about it.

What were the clerics doing during the Friday prayers? Was there much talk of vengeance from them?

No.

Would it be accurate to describe the Blasts as the Muslim reaction to the riots?

Not just the riots, it should also include the demolition of the Babri Masjid. That somehow they wanted to avenge the demolition and the riots.

So it would have been seen as ‘our’ reaction to something that ‘they’ have done?

Of course. The communities were completely polarised so it was ‘us against them’.

Has that changed?

No, it has not. Rather, it has become worse.

How do Muslims view Dawood Ibrahim?

That’s a very tricky question to answer. Because for some Muslims Dawood is a messiah. For some Muslims he is the ultimate paragon of virtue. But by and large, for the majority of the community, he is a criminal: The don who has brought a bad name to the community.

Have you ever met him?

No.

Have you ever spoken to him?

I have spoken to him.

How many times?

I have spoken to him… twice at least.

What kind of a man is he?

You can’t make out much about a man just by talking to him on the phone. I won’t be able to give a proper assessment of him.

Is he religious?

Well, they say he is religious. But his acts don’t reveal that.

How did he come across on the phone?

Well, he was civil on the phone and as polite to me as other people are when they talk on the phone.

Do you think he was involved in the Blasts?

Well, there are very strong indications from, what do you say, unreliable records which indicate that somehow he was involved in the Blasts, and gave some external help. But there is nothing on the record of evidence to prove that he was.

Are you saying there is nothing to show his involvement?

There are some very, what you say, superficial or weak evidences against him and his involvement in the Blasts. But it could be because the cops couldn’t reach them, the cops couldn’t get those evidences against him. And they needed proofs that implicate him in the Blasts.

And they didn’t get them?

And they didn’t get them.

Where is Dawood now?

He is in Karachi.

How does he manage his activities from there?

More or less he is retired from the active life of the Mafia. More or less he is a confidant or advisor to the ISI. Chhota Shakeel is looking after his criminal empire.

Does he have Bombay’s police in his pocket?

(laughs) No, that’s a very wrong description. Not in his pocket. But he knows a lot of them and a lot of policemen do listen to him and do his bidding.

How about politicians?

Well, some of the politicians are very close to him and have met him so many times when they are abroad, such as in London.

Why does Pakistan tolerate him?

A: No, he is their guest. He is their much-valued guest. They are not tolerating him.

What value does he bring?

For one, Dawood still has a lot of contacts in Indian politics, right from the state ministers to leading ministers. He knows a lot of senior policemen. And if Pakistan or ISI want to perpetrate a thing like the Bomb Blasts, Dawood can still do it.

You’re saying they have the capability to repeat something like the Bomb Blasts?

It can be done not once, but as many times as they want.

What was the involvement of the ISI in the Bomb Blasts?

Without ISI’s help Tiger Memon would not have been able to do such a thing.

Was there political approval in Pakistan for what the ISI did? I mean the Blasts.

An average Pakistani thrives on hatred against India which is why all their rulers from Nawaz
Sharif to Benazir to Musharraf, they have to keep their hatred alive.

Why was Lt Gen Javed Nasir sacked as the head of the ISI after the Blasts?

For ostensible reasons. To show that they were against it. Why did Nawaz Sharif encourage the Kargil intrusion?

How many people in Bombay from the gangs were in touch with the ISI?

They had no direct link with the ISI. Some of the top guys like Tiger Memon or Dawood Ibrahim or Mohammed Dossa or Anees Ibrahim would know ISI guys.

Do you know what the reaction in Pakistan was to the Blasts?

No, I am not aware.

What was Dawood’s reaction?

Well, Dawood somehow had an inkling that such an operation is underway and some blast or some explosion will happen.

Why do you say this?

There are statements of Blast accused. Dawood had spoken to the accused and he had said that he would be sending some chemicals to Raigarh. That means he was aware that such an operation was underway.

Do you personally believe that he was involved?

I really cannot give my personal opinion on this.

What does your book say about this?

My book has everything that has been put on paper (in the trial). About the accused, about the others’ statements made by Salim Kutta and at least three accused have made statements against him (Dawood).

Yes, your book quotes the police records but it doesn’t tell us what you feel about this. Why is that?

See, as I said, when I started out on this book I was a journalist and even when I finished the book I was a journalist and as a journalist I am only supposed to report what I have learned.

Most of your journalistic work has been on the underworld and the gangs. Did the Blasts change the gangs in any way?

No. If you’re asking whether they have become communal, no they have not. There is no communalism.

How were they able to pull off something so sophisticated?

What I have gathered during my research for the book is that the design was far more diabolic and dangerous than what they managed to do.

What was this?

They wanted to perpetrate blasts in at least eight cities in India. Those eight cities included Delhi, Mumbai, Calcutta, Ahmedabad… But due to some reason they could not pull it off.

What was the reason?

First of all there was a major rift between the gang bosses. Dawood, Tiger Memon, Mohammed Dossa stopped seeing eye to eye with each other. Then there was the matter of some being arrested, like Gul Mohammed was arrested only three days before the Blasts. So there were these incidents which prevented them from doing it earlier and they finally did it on March 12.

What is the status of the gangs?

Today the gangs are in an absolutely bad shape. There are not very many people who will be willing to work. Because of serial encounters, sterner laws like MCOCA.

Are you saying that if the ‘encounter culture’ had come to Bombay years earlier the Blasts would not have happened?

No, I don’t think encounters and the Blasts can be related in any way. The Blasts were more of an emotional reaction and not seen by them as crimes.

But they were executed by these criminals, weren’t they?

No. Amongst the Blast accused only two or three people had some criminal record. Like Tiger Memon, and one guy was involved in a stabbing incident. Otherwise none of them had any criminal record.

How much of your research material was gathered from the gangs?

I didn’t take any material from them. Most of my material came from the CBI’s Special Task Force, lawyers, cops.

When you spoke to Dawood Ibrahim, it was not in relation to the book?

It was not in relation to the book. I asked him about his involvement in the Blasts but not in relation to this book.

Did he deny involvement?

He denied it. He said that police had the habit of blaming him for every small thing. That had he been here in 1947, he would have been blamed for Partition.

You said there was both the sort of sophistication needed to plan the Blasts and the kind of churning that led to the Blasts the first time. Is there any possibility of them being repeated?

Yes.

What would change that?

I think that basically what should happen is that the majority community or the politicians should stop looking at the Muslim community as an outsider.

How do they do that?
How do they start going about doing that?

First of all I really feel that the initiative has to come from the community elders.

Which community?

Of course, the majority community. Because it’s like, you know… we look on them as elder brothers. We expect that they being elders should show us more compassion, more understanding and somehow there should be a feeling of accommodation. I mean why I’m saying this and why I say we look upon them as elder brothers is that Muslims never went and demolished some temple before, and Muslims never thought of retaliating.

But this is precisely the problem. That there is a recorded history of Muslims having vandalized Hindu temples.

See, for the wrongdoings of Mughals you cannot punish people of the contemporary world. Whatever happened, was in the past. Today’s community cannot be held responsible for those things. They never instigated those rulers.

Moving on to the investigation. We have a dreadful conviction ratio. How well was the Blasts case investigated? And how well is it being prosecuted?

See, it’s very easy to make a comment from the other side of the fence. But from whatever I have researched, I think there was more that could have been done in investigation and prosecution.

In what way?

First of all, like the defendants rightly pointed out in their arguments the method of recording confessions was not properly followed. The procedure was not properly followed. There were several loopholes. They could have been more particular. They had all the power, all the authority to implement these laws. If they have not followed the rules and regulations despite having the authority, then they are to be blamed for that.

Has the Blasts changed the police in any way?

Well they were chasing criminals then and they are chasing criminals now. Much of that has not changed.

In operational ways, have they learnt anything? Have their strategies changed?

For one, they suffered a huge loss of human intelligence. They don’t have Muslim informers any more.

Why not?

Because Muslim informers have stopped trusting them.

That’s very interesting. You’re saying that they had a lot of informers before the Blasts.

Yeah.

And they lost all of them after the Blasts.

Yeah.

And you’re saying that this happened because of their perceived bias against the Muslims during the riots.

Yeah.

So there were not too many Khabris who were forthcoming as informers and to record statements?

The Blasts were done by a handful of Muslim youths, most of whom had no criminal history and so even if somebody wanted to help the police they couldn’t because they were not aware that internal people are involved. But I think that Mohalla committees and Muslim social workers were quite helpful.

How did the Blasts change Hindu-Muslim relations in Bombay?

Muslims have earned the title of being unpatriotic, terrorist, bomb-makers.

What did you learn from the writing of this book?

I was thinking why this should have happened. There is no reason this should have happened. There was no way the blasts should have happened and destroyed so many lives. I mean it has destroyed so many lives! How many lives have changed because of this one incident? Why the riots should have happened, why the demolition should have happened? India could have remained as a plant of beautiful flowers as it was earlier, had these things not happened. I feel emotionally affected by this.

By the writing of this book have you found resolution for the distress that you feel?

No. I feel more distressed and have been more badly affected by this.

How has the writing of the book changed you?

When I hadn’t written this book and I hadn’t researched it, I felt that perhaps there were times when it was necessary to retaliate and to be violent, act very forcefully and all that.

And now?

I feel you cannot right a wrong by being violent, oppressive or by being forceful and dominant.